Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:00:58] Welcome to Energy Impact. I am so excited today to have with us Zainab Jilani. She's a Research Associate at the Cleantech Group, covering energy and power. It's really exciting to have you here, Zainab. Welcome to the show.

Zainab Gilani [00:01:13] Thanks so much, Michelle. Thanks for having me. It's also great seeing you not that long ago. I know we connected maybe a few weeks ago at the Cleantech Forum in San Diego.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:01:20] It was lovely to meet you, and a really awesome event. We'll definitely get into some of the programming that Cleantech Group covers, but I'd love to just start out getting to know you. Can you tell me a little bit about your background, where you're from?

Zainab Gilani [00:01:34] Yeah, of course. So, I'm in New York right now, and I've pretty much spent my entire life in New York. I did a brief six-month stint studying abroad at the University of Edinburgh while in college. But yeah, pretty much born here, grew up here, went to school in upstate New York for college. I came back here and worked pretty much remotely for a lot of it because after COVID, were we out for a bit. So yeah, that was all really interesting. I was fortunate enough to have some time to travel in between that. My background, education-wise, is in physics and English. I know that's a pretty interesting combo, but I feel like they help me work in market research.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:02:12] Yeah, so what drew you to physics? What drew you to English? And how did you see yourself taking those two interests forward into your career?

Zainab Gilani [00:02:21] It's so crazy because I started college with literally no idea what I wanted to do. And I pretty much almost graduated college with that same mindset. I just took whichever classes I really enjoyed. And I think both physics and English is a lot of problem solving. So, I know people talk about first principles, thinking a lot, these days, but for me, when you're just starting off with a physics problem, it's so interesting to really understand what the givens are, what the unknowns are, what the variables are, and how you can play around with those. And I feel that thinking has also helped me a lot in the work I do now.

Zainab Gilani [00:02:51] But yeah, I pretty much just took whatever classes I was interested in. At the University of Edinburgh, I was able to take really cool classes like High-energy Astrophysics, Physics of Climate. And then in English classes, I was able to take Mystery of Horror. I really appreciated the whole storytelling element of it.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:03:09] Left brain, right brain.

Zainab Gilani [00:03:09] Yeah, exactly. It was really cool. When it comes to sustainability, it was always something I cared a lot about and I was super passionate about. I would see waste in all these different areas. When I would go back home to visit my family in India, you could very visibly see the waste issue. So, I always thought my career would take me more down the circular economy path, which it did for a little bit, but I was able to transition back into energy and power and really use some of my physics knowledge.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:03:38] Wow, that's awesome. So, energy and power. What started you down that path of being interested in that specifically? Especially in Edinburgh too, it was a really beautiful space where you're studying and there are nuclear power plants around, but really you're just in great countryside.

Zainab Gilani [00:03:55] I had the time of my life there. My favorite physicist was James Clerk Maxwell and he studied at Edinburgh. And then, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who wrote Sherlock Holmes... It was a very educational atmosphere too, which was really great. But it's funny... That experience was also really interesting because I volunteer with an organization that was focused on sustainability. So, they were actually doing solar power panel installations in refugee camps in Greece. And so, I was very much more of an ancillary, just supporting when I started out some of the admin stuff. But just seeing the work that they did was super interesting. So yeah, trying to get more involved with that kind of thinking.

Zainab Gilani [00:04:34] But career-wise, I ended up working for a company called TerraCycle for a little bit and then an impact investment firm, where I focused more on circular economy issues. And it was funny because it eventually helped me to transition into energy and power because I had this whole mindset that I needed to work at a nonprofit and I had to work on waste issues. But then through my experiences, I kind of realized that for profit, working with entities on a larger scale, you can really tackle the energy issues at a broader angle.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:05:05] That's a really powerful insight. It's one that I've also had in my career as well. The impact that you can make when you're on that private sector side, when you have the tools to do what you want in terms of chasing what might be the most impactful for decarbonization, for sustainability goals. I think that there's so much power there. Are there any key lessons that you learned as you were looking at... You had this one career that could have been but you found yourself moving more towards that impact investment space.

Zainab Gilani [00:05:38] I think one clear takeaway is I think the most impactful organizations are financially sustainable organizations. Because I was working for a nonprofit with TerraCycle. We essentially were trying to help waste pickers pick up waste and marine debris from the waterways in Thailand. And the team's doing great right now. I think they've collected over 2 million pounds of debris. But I remember around COVID time, I was doing some of the budgeting and I was like, "Oh, it's going to be really hard to fundraise in the US." And it's just like, the timing for fundraising for a nonprofit during COVID when people were holding things a little bit closer to the chest, it made me realize that, "Oh, I want to work for an organization that doesn't really have to rely on outside sources of funding." I think that was a clear "aha" moment where I was like, "Oh, maybe impact focused business is where I want to be." So, that was a major transition for me.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:06:29] Okay, so what started you down the path where you ended up eventually going into the Cleantech Group? Obviously, it seems from your educational background, there's a keen interest that you have in research and asking why and being exposed. It also seems, in your early career, to the impact makers, the innovators. So, how did you get pulled into Cleantech?

Zainab Gilani [00:06:56] It's so interesting because I started at Cleantech Group thinking I would be focusing on the circular economy sector. So, we have five main sectors. We have Materials and Chemicals, Resources and Environment, Transportation and Logistics, Ag and Food, and Energy and Power. I thought I was going to be a little bit more on the circular economy side, but I got a little bit more exposed to the work that we were doing in energy. And my other "aha" moment was if you can just switch where people get their electrons from, no one really cares. Versus if you're working in circular economy, you don't want to give them a paper straw because it ruins the customer experience. Or, you don't want to force people to use certain models that may not be organic for them. The whole consumer behavior and asking people to sacrifice, it's not the whole part of circular economy, but it's a part that I found was really difficult to try and move forward versus with renewable power and energy. If you can have industries and people operate the same exact way but just convert to renewable power and give them the storage or the solutions they need on the back end, people won't care. And I think that was really enticing to me.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:08:02] That's another really, really important insight. I'd love to unpack that a little bit more. I mean, just the foundational role that energy plays, not just in your daily life, but in literally everything, from, as you said, the products that you consume, straws or packaging, to the transportation sector, the fact that we're recording this podcast right now and I have lights all around me, which is how people really think about electricity. It's so foundational, but it also impacts our quality of life. It impacts the abilities, the opportunity opportunities that we have to do things that are maybe not in the clean tech space, but to dance and to sing and to travel and to really just enjoy life. How have you seen that manifest since you had that realization and now are fully in the power and energy space?

Zainab Gilani [00:08:58] It's so crazy to think because the demand for consumer goods and the demand for energy is only going to increase. And at least when you're working on the energy side, you can be like, "Okay, if we can find a drop-in substitute from where people are getting their energy..." Whether that be nuclear power like SMRs, normal nuclear large-scale plants, potentially fusion down the line, wave energy converters, there are all these different innovative technologies that we're looking at for different applications. And I think really understanding where the production matches the application is really crucial. And I know you do that with your work at Last Energy. But I think understanding the different types of energy that can be provided for different circumstances and having people maintain the same quality of life, output... Especially when you're working for industry, you can't really have power generation at 99%. You can't really afford to have a manufacturing facility be out of power for a day while you're trying to figure it out. So yeah, I think that key component of really trying to figure out where the best solutions are for each application has been really interesting.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:10:05] Yeah, that's really fascinating. So, let's turn to your current work. And maybe let's discuss some of the recurring themes that you've found as you've been exploring these various industries. What are the key investment trends? What have you seen really driving each industry that you've studied?

Zainab Gilani [00:10:23] So, that's a really good point. I'm trying to think if I should just do it for each sector. But obviously, the key drivers throughout are just lower costs. Lower costs are absolutely key, especially when you're looking at the levelized cost of electricity versus the levelized cost of storage for potentially long-duration energy storage technologies. Everyone wants the lowest-cost solution that's the most reliable. So, I think that's also where a lot of things like nuclear can come in because you have really high capacity factors and it's well-established technology. But the biggest problems right now are the known cost overruns, the really long timelines. And then potentially, if you're looking at new nuclear, how the supply chain challenges can be for those different fuels.

Zainab Gilani [00:11:05] I think supply chain challenges are also really interesting challenges, because I'm sure three or four years ago, people didn't really think that there would be as many challenges sourcing supplies, especially with what's going on in Russia and the Ukraine. I know there's a whole issue with the HALEU supply now because a lot of it was tied up in Russia, so that's causing a bit of a problem for a few companies in the new nuclear sector. But across the board, I think making sure that the building materials for companies who are doing new technologies, we can really understand the cost. I imagine it's really hard for investors to look at a new technology and like, "Okay, these are the costs now, but how are they going to go down over time? What are the assumptions that are being made about how this material will cost five, ten, fifteen years?" So yeah, I think supply chain has definitely been one of those big challenges for a lot of nuclear.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:11:59] And it's not just a nuclear. It's a great example you brought up with nuclear fuel. But even as we see in the semiconductor space, it's just really a lot of these energy technologies that have these cutting edge materials. We have to ensure that we have that security of supply And that's when these geopolitics come into play as well.

Zainab Gilani [00:12:21] Yeah, yeah. And then another one maybe I didn't mention is just... I think for new technologies, just investors trying to take on technical risk. What's really interesting is when you look at the long duration energy storage, you have these types of technologies like thermal battery storage or thermal energy storage and then more electrochemical storage. So with thermal energy storage, you're working with known materials.

Zainab Gilani [00:12:43] Antora, they just raised $50 million in their Series B, which is great. But they're working with solid carbon and graphite blocks, so it's not necessarily something that's so new that people are going to be like, "Oh, investors are taking on quite a large amount of technical risk." Versus, I think when we were looking at the electrochemical battery space, we saw a lot of investments going into Form Energy. Form Energy raise $600 million, I think since 2021.

Zainab Gilani [00:13:10] And also investments going into really new types of chemistry. So, there are chemistries that use nickel, zinc, all types of different flow battery solutions. And they do have their investors, but I think when we speak to other investors who maybe didn't invest in that sector, they were a little bit more hesitant to take on investments in a solution where they weren't fully sure how it would play out in the end.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:13:35] What are some of the other key considerations that you've seen by the investment community as they've been looking at new energy technologies overall?

Zainab Gilani [00:13:43] I think it's really interesting because fortunately at Cleantech Group, a wide variety of our clients are in the financial services field. So, they include private equity, venture capital, banks, and insurance agencies. We talk to a lot of them as we do our research as well. So, I love talking to people from Europe because they're very honest. They'll be like, "Yeah, I think a lot of the American companies are really overvalued." And they'll be like, "Yeah, maybe the market timing isn't great." So, I think how people approach their investment strategies is really interesting.

Zainab Gilani [00:14:13] And then when I talk to American investors, they're so, so excited about their investment. It's really great to talk to them because they'll go really deep into the technical details of why they've invested in certain technologies. It's really clear just what went into their thinking and why they invested. I think electrochemical long-duration batteries are really interesting space to be looking at. I'm not sure 100% how it's going to play out with some of the other long-duration energy storage technologies because you also have mechanical solutions like energy people know pretty well, Quidnet, hydro store and also thermal, as I mentioned earlier.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:14:55] Yeah. So, what are some of the other key learnings that you've had maybe as you've been looking... Less speaking with the investment community but as you've been speaking with the innovators in this space. What have the themes been there?

Zainab Gilani [00:15:09] It's so, so broad. I speak to so many different innovators across different sectors. But maybe one I'll touch upon that maybe you don't get too often is fusion. I am so excited about fusion. And I know it's one of the things, people always say, "It's 30 years away." And a lot of fusion companies have made very, very ambitious goals. Some of them have said that they're going to try to achieve breakeven in '24 and 2025. And breakeven is essentially when the fusion reactor is able to output more energy than is input. And it's a huge milestone. It's one of those things that the National Ignition Facility was able to achieve not too long ago and it made headlines. So, that was a really exciting moment, but I'm really excited to see which private company does it first.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:15:54] Yeah. So, I'm curious in that space, right? When you look at some of the really large, internationally-funded projects CERN, and then you see some of these private innovators trying to do that... How, from the objective research angle... And then also, understanding how investors are looking at this space, how do people think about the differences in the level of investment from these large-scale projects to these single company innovations?

Zainab Gilani [00:16:22] It's a really, really good point. I think the consensus is that private companies can move way faster than these international organizations. Like ITER and some of these other players are doing really, really great work. A lot of the main scientists from the private industries have come out of those organizations. They do a lot of research that's really relevant. But in terms of actual moving towards a goal like commercialization, private companies by far are doing so well.

Zainab Gilani [00:16:48] And I think what's really, really helpful has been the advancements in computer science, AI, machine learning. Overall, I think just the quality of the simulations that these private companies are able to do just really, really accelerates the simulation and testing process. So, it's a lot easier for investors to have clear milestones and to understand the simulations and then where the companies actually are with their physical experiments. It also saves these companies a lot on cost because if you're able to have really high-quality, real-time simulations that are fairly accurate, you don't have to use expensive supplies, fuels, to do a lot of the physical experiments. You can go into the physical experiments knowing a lot more than you may have done beforehand.

Zainab Gilani [00:17:31] In terms of your point on how do investors invest? I can't get too into every single company and why each investor invested in which technology type. But I think what's really exciting is you have companies like Helion and CFS achieve certain milestones. With Commonwealth Fusion, based out of Boston, they were able to work with MIT on high-temperature superconducting magnets. And the specific milestone they were able to reach allowed them to have almost a $2 billion Series B investment. And I think Helion as well, they were able to achieve temperatures of around 100,000,000 °C. And so, that also encouraged investors to invest.

Zainab Gilani [00:18:09] And those are the big name players, but I think what's really interesting about the research that we do at Cleantech is we see your trends in 2021 and 2022, massive $2 billion, $3 billion years. And then, you see 2023 and it's so much less. And you're like, "Oh, people aren't interested in fusion anymore." But that's not the case. The number of deals actually increased, they were just smaller volume deals going into newer technologies. So, I thought that was really interesting, people investing in seed-state fusion. I'm not saying they're betting against the big companies, but I'm saying they're still interested in the fusion industry but maybe not the most typical technologies. You have your common tokamaks or your field reverse configuration devices that people have been investing in.

Zainab Gilani [00:18:57] I can talk about fusion for a while. The guys that we had at our forum in San Diego were great. If you go into their technology, it's so, so interesting. I don't know how technical you want me to get right now, but...

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:19:12] Well, actually, you did write a few recent posts. And then, of course, we had the session in San Diego. But I think you had three blogs over the past year around fusion. Pick the topic. I think you talked about commercialization, which we looked at a little bit here. Specific systems, you covered. And then of course, the regulatory and supply chain process that's being developed for these new technologies that are a little bit different from the traditional fission ways that there are supply chain issues and regulatory issues. So, I'd love to hear more of your perspective on it.

Zainab Gilani [00:19:48] I think we'll just always end up gravitating towards what's really interesting to me. And I think in the fusion landscape, just generally what's really interesting to me are the technologies that maybe don't use these super intense lasers or these really high-powered magnets. The technologies that we had at CFNA, they obviously are also complex systems, but generally speaking to me, they seem a little bit simpler. So, we had General Fusion talk a little bit about their technology. They're not necessarily your traditional tokamak or laser-based inertial confinement system. They don't necessarily use those technologies. They have a mechanical system that allows them to get the fusion reactions they need. We also had MIFTI and OpenStar Technologies there.

Zainab Gilani [00:20:36] So, OpenStar is really interesting. They're a company based out of New Zealand. Essentially, they use a levitated dipole system. And what a levitated dipole system essentially is, it's almost like a reverse tokamak, where you're trying to reach the same high temperatures and densities but you can operate a little bit more efficiently. They can use their magnets more efficiently, and they also have this system that allows them to take parts apart and put them back together again, so that they can iterate really fast. They're in their prototype stage now.

Zainab Gilani [00:21:15] And then, MIFTI is another one we had speak. They essentially are doing Z-pinch and Zap Energy is also doing Z-pinch. And I think these types of technologies are also really interesting for the same point where they're just able to test and move at a really, really fast pace. MIFTI's been working really close with a few national organizations. They're really transparent with some of the milestones that they've achieved in the past and that they're trying to achieve in the future. They're also one of those companies that has stated really the ambitious goal of trying to achieve breakeven in the next year or so. So, I'm just looking forward to some of the news and milestones that they release.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:21:53] Talk to me a little bit about the full commercialization pathway with these novel fusion systems. You've mentioned a few times this breakeven point as being a really critical milestone. What are the next milestones in terms of actually reaching commercially-viable fusion? What has your research shown that might be... Maybe it's still a stretch goal, but might we be looking at as potential futures where fusion is actually be commercialized and more widespread?

Zainab Gilani [00:22:25] So, you raise a really good point. Just because a company achieves breakeven doesn't mean they're going to be commercialized the next day. Commercialization is an entirely different topic where you have to source all your materials, understand the supply chains. A lot of the key components are based out of Japan and in other areas of the globe, so understanding how you can work with a really wide variety of players to get all the components and supply the materials that you need to have an operating system... And not only just one operating system, but to replicate that, that's not a small task. So, just because a company achieves breakeven, it doesn't mean that we're going to have commercial fusion on the grid. I think most estimates will say, even in the fusion industry, a little bit more towards the 2040 mark, potentially, of actually seeing more than one reactor online and connected to the grid in a wider capacity.

Zainab Gilani [00:23:15] It's the same problems as a lot of the other industries are facing. How do you get the costs down? You want it to be cost competitive. How do you make sure that you have substantial supply chains that are reliable and are available? One of the components I was looking at is lithium-6. And I think there's some trickiness there because it's not necessarily a material or compound that's readily available in the United States. You have to look at other countries across the globe, including Russia and China. And the way that you enrich it is not necessarily the best when it comes to health or safety or just chemically. I think there's a bit of mercury involved.

Zainab Gilani [00:23:59] So, I think understanding where the actual bottlenecks might be for other supplies that and how that pans out for the wider fusion industry. Because there are so many different cogs and pieces that you have to look at. So, it's not just achieving breakeven. It's what's the whole system, who's working on the supply chain, and what are those key components that are really needed to drive commercialization?

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:24:24] Yeah, absolutely. With nuclear fusion, nuclear fission, these technologies have real major potential for decarbonizing the grid in the near term. In the long term, with even smaller SMRs, we're looking at decarbonizing not just the grid, but at the company level or the town, the city, municipal level.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:24:47] But you also have done a lot of work in long-duration battery storage, which helps this other piece of the puzzle, right? Not every country is interested in nuclear as a baseload source. We have a lot of renewable capacity, wind, solar. That has challenges in terms of when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, as every politician loves to say. But this emerging field of long-duration battery storage is seen as a really critical technology innovation to enable that greater penetration of renewable electricity to have more stable grids. And not just at the grid scale, but at the distributed energy scale as well with some of the smaller technologies. Can you talk about some of the trends that you've been seeing in that space?

Zainab Gilani [00:25:39] So, you said it pretty much exactly right. You have areas where the sun isn't shining all the time, the wind isn't blowing, so how do you store that energy for use at a later time? And I think the best way to talk about it is the Department of Energy defines long-duration energy storage as storage that can provide as backup for renewable generation for over 10 hours. And it's that 10 hour mark that's key because lithium ions do a great job up until 4 hours, and then they start to get a little bit more expensive.

Zainab Gilani [00:26:08] I think one of the other challenges is just overall with safety. When it comes to lithium-ion batteries, when you have keep on stacking them on top of each other, it just creates more of a fire hazard. And there have been a number of issues with lithium-ion battery fires, especially in the state of New York. So, just understanding what the limitations of lithium-ion batteries are. Because, I mean, lithium-ion batteries are a great product. They're super cheap; they're commercial. It'd be great if we could just use lithium-ions the whole way, but we can't really do that.

Zainab Gilani [00:26:37] And I think one of the problems is lithium-ion batteries, as they scale, their costs just go up proportionally. And then, you have these other types of technologies like flow batteries where you can have a lot of the infrastructure already in place, and then the cost can scale. Maybe not as quickly as lithium-ion batteries, because you just have to increase the electrolyte and flow battery systems and it's a little bit cheaper, potentially down the road, for those longer-energy duration storages when you get to 10 and 12. But yeah, it's a really interesting market because there hasn't been one solution that's been fully commercialized for everyone.

Zainab Gilani [00:27:23] I think one of the interesting things, how I approach this sector is because... There are vanadium flow batteries that already exist, right? So, those are already commercial, but a lot of people don't think that they're going to really capture the market because they're really expensive. They're up to maybe two to three times more expensive than lithium-ion batteries. But I thought that was really interesting because you already have a product on the market. It's just is it possible to get those costs down? And I think one of the problems with vanadium flow batteries is just still the really, really volatile nature of the electrolyte, which is vanadium. So, you have, again, a supply chain where a lot of the vanadium is wrapped up in Russia and China.

Zainab Gilani [00:28:02] In China, it's really interesting because they have almost an insular market where the demand for vanadium meets the supply. Vanadium can be a byproduct of the steel industry. They do a lot of steel manufacturing there, so the vanadium, they can take internally and domestically and transfer it to vanadium flow batteries within China. The one organization I talked to who's in this field, they basically said that China is going to be one of the leaders in vanadium flow batteries. And they already have one of the largest vanadium flow batteries connected to the grid.

Zainab Gilani [00:28:37] There's this one company called Dalian Rongke. They essentially are one of the biggest VRFB developers in China. They raised, I want to say, over $100 million last year. And they have a 100 megawatt battery that's installed. And I think we're just going to be seeing more of that in China. So, even though this may not be the best solution for every other country, maybe not for California or for New York, but I think in China, it'll be really interesting to see how this market potentially grows internally there. But I think it's also interesting because Australia and the US and parts of the UK, they're also trialing vanadium flow batteries and they're also looking to expand mines. But it's one of those things where there's still a lot of dependent variables on how much the actual electrolyte is going to cost.

Zainab Gilani [00:29:26] And I think one thing that's really interesting with this type of battery is some companies are piloting a system called electrolyte leasing. For a lot of flow batteries, the most expensive part is the electrolyte. And that's essentially what moves the charged particles across from the battery so that energy can be stored. Because vanadium does not degrade over time, you can essentially just lease it out to people. You just like loan it out to them, and then, potentially, if you need to disassemble the battery, you can take it back. So if that works, I think that could be a really cool way of keeping cost low and not passing it on to the customer. But I'm still keeping my eye out on how that works, because I don't think that's going to be the solution that fixes every problem.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:30:13] No, but it's it's really fascinating, right? Because I think right now we've been having a conversation around the technological advances and thinking about innovation from the technology perspective. But what you highlighted there, whether it turns out to be viable or not, is some of these more business model, nontechnical innovations that actually... When you're dealing with things like just cost and delivery, that's actually where we need to be innovating, on the financing mechanisms or the go-to-market strategies or these unique leasing and supply chain issues. It's really interesting. Are there any other trends like that you've seen that you didn't expect when you were just looking at these from the technology perspective?

Zainab Gilani [00:31:03] I think business model innovation, to your point, is really, really interesting. Maybe in some other sectors. I think when my colleague and I were looking at home decarbonization... That's a tricky one; we can get into that later. How do you take established commercial technology and just make it cheaper so that you're not taking on a new technical risk?

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:31:23] Yeah, yeah. Going back to the your foundational point though around energy, it's all about how you make it cheaper. Because if energy is the foundation of pretty much all of society, then we want to increase that access as much as possible, and that means lowering the cost.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:31:39] Okay, so let's turn a little bit to the future. You mentioned some of the trends you've been seeing in 2021, '22, '23. It's 2024. I don't know what your research agenda looks like to be able to write these future posts. What are you currently seeing in the market in 2024? What are your predictions as of early March 2024? Where should people be watching?

Zainab Gilani [00:32:08] I think I mentioned it earlier, but I think the whole thermal storage energy... I think that's going to be really interesting because they've benefited a lot from the IRA. And I think just seeing how they're able to scale those technologies will be really exciting, especially if they're able to do it domestically. I know there's been a lot of focus on keeping things domestic, and I think if you're able to scale those technologies, that will be really exciting.

Zainab Gilani [00:32:34] And then also, just trying to see how the US is able take the IRA and actual implement it. Hopefully, things stay the same way whether there's an administration change or not, but obviously, I can't predict the future on that. I know it's an election year for a lot of countries, globally. For me personally, because maybe I live in a US bubble, I just feel like it's going to be a really big one here. But yeah, I think just keeping my eye out on how a lot of the investments that happened in 2021 and 2022 play out and see the market consolidation across maybe a few key players.

Zainab Gilani [00:33:09] I think one of the biggest things will looking at the partnerships that organizations have taken on with either utilities or with private corporations. I know you're in the new nuclear sector, and I'm really keeping my eye out for additional announcements about who gets licensed, what the regulatory process looks like. And maybe if there are any other companies that are working with key corporate players... I'm sure you know and maybe you want to talk about it a little bit, but just matching up those new nuclear technologies with really key applications, whether that's in industry or data centers or regions that don't have access to renewables, like wind and solar in Eastern Europe.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:33:48] Yeah, absolutely. I think if you look at the outcome of COP from the nuclear perspective, for example. We had 30 plus nations signing on to triple the nuclear capacity by 2050. But really what that was was a challenge to the industry. Like, "Okay, from the policy perspective, we recognize the value of this technology. We recognize the importance of nuclear or other technologies to addressing climate change, but a challenge to the industry to actually deliver on that." And I think that's exactly where we agree. We're in that space where it's time to start delivering. It's time to start those regulatory processes, figuring out those supply chain kinks, and ensuring that we're starting to get clean electrons on the grid. Not just in the nuclear space, but across really all of these technologies that have benefited from funding and attention, and I think a turning tide in terms of recognition of the value that we need to be making these investments.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:34:47] And that's not just from the policy perspective. It's also, as you said, from the corporate perspective, some of these partnerships that we're seeing. It used to be five, ten years ago, you'd see a lot of great statements by corporates about how they these goals to transition. But now that they're coming at the the end of those deadlines they've set for themselves, it's time to really see what progress can be made. And yeah, I'm also really excited to see how both the innovators take on that challenge, but also have the larger corporates work with those innovators to ensure that they can deploy those technology innovations and see real impact and see real progress.

Zainab Gilani [00:35:27] Yeah, you make a really good point there. And I think it's almost like this chain reaction of you have the ball rolling and are just trying to see where the momentum takes you. I'm really curious to see how that affects people on an individual level. Like, the increase adoption in EVs, the increased adoption of people just trying to decarbonize their homes and taking on individual actions. I think a lot of times in Cleantech Group, it's easy to talk about industry because you're working with fewer players. It's hard to talk about 300,000,000 people in America and trying to get everyone to adopt new practices or take on new technologies in their homes to decarbonize.

Zainab Gilani [00:36:02] And I think that ties into the research that my colleague Selene Law... She's the other lead for the Energy and Power sector at Cleantech Group. But yeah, she's been doing a lot of work on decarbonized homes. And the key thing that we keep on coming back to is just how you don't want to sacrifice your comfort. So, whether you're installing heat pumps or a smart thermostat or EV charging home batteries or solar, you want it to have a really seamless process. You want it to be low cost.

Zainab Gilani [00:36:31] And you also don't want to give the company negative reviews. And I think that goes a long way for these technologies and companies that are selling to homeowners. Because a lot of the way that they get business is by word of mouth. And if anyone does not have a good experience, that is really detrimental. So, just understanding how these companies can work with homeowners to give them the best quality products and drive a lot of momentum just because they offer really amazing savings on energy bills, they have a really good app, or they just provide a lot of value to the customer.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:37:02] Yeah, that's actually really interesting. To be honest, the term decarbonizing homes, it's new to me. I never really heard anything like that. Obviously, it makes a lot of sense. As we're looking at our own individual footprints, we kind of expand that to our households and then the physical spaces that we occupy and that we have control over. I used to think of it in terms of like, "Hey, we can weatherize certain things. We can ensure that we're making the right choices when it comes to our utility bills. Or, if we're going to go off grid, what would that might look like? Or water, using less water and consumption and stuff like that." But the idea that this is now a titled, a named idea is really exciting. Can you tell me a little bit more? What all does that include, and what types of companies are leading in the decarbonized home space?

Zainab Gilani [00:37:56] The way we think about it is just like if you're trying to take a home and decarbonize it, you have to decarbonize a lot of different aspects of it. And I think the biggest energy and electricity usage is on HVAC. A lot of companies are trying to tackle that through heat pumps. You have air source heat pumps that take air and transfer it internally and can heat and cool the house that way. You have geothermal heat pumps that take heat and energy from the earth and can decarbonize homes that way. And then, there's air-to-water as well. But I think understanding HVAC is a really interesting problem, and you can tackle that a lot of ways.

Zainab Gilani [00:38:34] A company that I thought was really interesting is a company called tado. They were on our GCT 100 Report, and I spoke to them not too long ago. But they essentially are a smart thermostat. And pretty much like I said before, they say that they can reduce clients' energy bills by up to 22%, and they have almost 4 million people onboarded in Europe. And I think just the really high cost of energy in Europe is one of the things that really drew people to tado. And they're not only doing the smart thermostat, but they're also looking to make intelligent EV charging and also intelligent heat pumps. They're not necessarily doing the actual hardware themselves for EV charging and heat pumps, but they're making them more connected so that individuals can sell energy back to the grid at optimum prices and still save on cost too. So, I think it's a lot of the big angle of having homeowners save on energy bills. That's a really key part of that decarbonized home strategy.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:39:32] Yeah, that's super cool. I will definitely be following that space.

Zainab Gilani [00:39:36] And we'll keep you updated. We're still in the middle of our research. It's still a little bit ambiguous.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:39:42] Yeah. No, it's great. So, maybe turning to Cleantech Group overall, giving you the space on this platform, do you have any upcoming announcements or milestones that you'd like to share or have our listeners be aware of from the work you guys are doing?

Zainab Gilani [00:39:58] I think maybe just overall, we're a research0driven organization. We track those key main sectors that I mentioned to you earlier. We work with a really wide variety of clients, universities, financial services, governments, like city and local. And in addition to the research and consulting and event services that we provide, I think a really good way to look at the foundation of our research is to look at some of the reports that we do.

Zainab Gilani [00:40:21] So, you were at Cleantech Forum North America. The big theme was our GCT 100 and who was on that 100 list. And I think a really key point to make is we're not just pulling these 100 companies out of the air. We're not doing it based off of revenue. We're doing it based off of the opinions of 85 experts that we have on our expert panel. And how this works is that we really pick people who have skin in the game. So, whether those are investors or corporates, people who would actively be engaging with the companies on this list, we have them on our expert panel. And the way the nomination process works is that everyone at Cleantech Group, we can nominate companies that we think are really exceptional based off our research, and the investors themselves can nominate companies as well.

Zainab Gilani [00:41:00] But a fun thing that I think is really important is that you can't invest just only your portfolio companies. If you're an investor, you have to pick non-portfolio companies as well and expand the scope of the nominations that we have. So, we have a really great pool of nominations. And then, it's an iterative process where our experts vote on the top 100 companies. The way my team describes it is just a really great chance to look back at the industry and really see what everyone thinks are the most impactful technologies and where they think these technologies might go in the next few years.

Zainab Gilani [00:41:34] So, that's one of the main reports that really sets the tone for the rest of the year. We also have follow-up reports like the APAC 25 and the Cleantech 50 to Watch. And then, we have our following events in Singapore in May, and then, hopefully, France in November as well. So, a lot of it is just based off of the research reports that we provide.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:41:54] Well, fantastic. Well, maybe I'll ask you the question I like to wrap some of these up with, which is... Tell me from the personal perspective, or you can take it from the Cleantech Group's perspective. What are you most looking forward to in the future of the power and energy space? What kind of just gets you excited?

Zainab Gilani [00:42:11] I'm still waiting for that fusion company announcement. I think someone's going to do it sometime soon. I don't know when; I don't know fully what the impact is going to mean. Maybe tons of investors are going to invest in that one company or that technology type. But I think it's coming in the next two years. And I'm not sure when or who, but I'm really excited about that. Because I think that's going to be the thing that delivers the wide capacity of fusion that we need on top of new nuclear and the host of solar and wind. I think, obviously, there's going to be so much energy demand that it's not just going to be one technology type.

Zainab Gilani [00:42:44] Oh, and another one is wave technology. I think they're an underrated technology sector. Motion Energy is doing a great job. CorPower Ocean was also on our GCT 100. I think they tackle the coast-to-coast stuff where you can have energy taken from the marine environment on the coast where a lot of the energy demand is anyways. So yeah, that's another one that I'm looking out for.

Michelle Brechtelsbauer [00:43:06] Amazing. Well, lots of really exciting innovations to keep everyone's eyes out for in the next year, in the next few years, maybe next decades. But Zainab, it was really fantastic to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being on.

Zainab Gilani [00:43:21] Thanks for having me.