Bret Kugelmass
We are here today with Purnomo Yusgiantoro who is the former Minister of Energy of Indonesia. Purnomo, welcome to the Energy Impact.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Hi, thank you.

Bret Kugelmass
It's so exciting to have you here to communicate across the world like this, but just to really learn about your distinguished career across energy and defense in your country. But before we get there, I would love to learn just a little bit more about your upbringing, if you could tell me about the place you grew up and what it was like?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, I grew up in the center of Java. I don't know if you are familiar or not with our country. I live in Central Java before and then I moved for further education in Bandung. Bandung is in the West of Java. And then, in fact, the US is my second home because I live in US for overall nine years.

Bret Kugelmass
Amazing. And what brought you out to the US? I know you studied at the Colorado School of Mines, is that right?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
First, I worked in Denver in Colorado for approximately two years and then I moved to California, to Bakersfield, to Laguna Hills, so I love California, the beautiful place. Then I returned back to my country and then I work at my country for approximately five to seven years before I brought my family again to Colorado, actually it's close to Denver, the small city, Golden, you know Colorado.

Bret Kugelmass
I love Golden. Oh, that's where they brew the beer.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
That's right. And then I also moved to Boulder to Colorado University where I spent some time there before they called me back to my country and then stay in the country. But I left my my children there in the United States.

Bret Kugelmass
But tell me, what drove your career path? How did you know what to study when you were growing up and what made you decide to want to become an engineer?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, Bret, as a poor boy before that, what I just dreamed of was to be accepted in the Bandung Institute of Technology. Bandung Institute of Technology actually is a very good school in our country - it's like in the US is like an MIT, Massachusetts Institute of Technology - and something like that. During the Dutch colony, the Dutch built good schools, they're similar to the Technical High School in Delft. There is a very good technical school, technical university in Delft, and they found the Bandung Institute of Technology. So, that's why I love to join there and they support me in the petroleum engineering department. Then I started in the petroleum engineering department, taking the engineering degree, similar with the BS degrees.

Bret Kugelmass
When you started studying, did you have an idea of what you wanted to do, where in the in the energy fields you might want to work someday?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, I have to be frank with you. I just wanted to survive at the time, I just wanted to survive.

Bret Kugelmass
Same for everybody. It's always the same.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
I thought before that, when I joined the good school, when I graduated, that I can manage myself to survive in the big countries, with 250 million people here in Indonesia. And lucky me, after three years I was in the university, they gave me the scholarship -Total. Total Energy is the French company that operates in Indonesia.

Bret Kugelmass
Where did you go from there? As you began to advance your studies, do you get further specialties within the space of petroleum engineering?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
To be honest with you, when I was just about to finish school, one of my professors, one of my professors asked me to work for the American company, the American consulting company and that's when they sent me to the Denver base for the consulting company, basic science systems. They sent me to Denver, to work there in Denver, but of course, for Indonesian projects. I spent approximately two years there.

Bret Kugelmass
What are the types of Indonesian projects? Is Indonesia rich in minerals and resources?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes, indeed. At the time, that was in 1970, when the oil boom happened. Texas is the haven for the oil and gas industry and Colorado was also doing a good job at the time. The oil and gas is the big deal, and we were just booming. Our production at the time was 1.6 million barrels of oil per day. And also we have, not only the oil and gas, but also the minerals mining. Freeport is there, you know Freeport is there. And then Denver-based companies was there also. Indonesia is blessed with a rich of natural resources, especially the mines and energy.

Bret Kugelmass
And how has this richness in resources steered the trajectory of the country - in terms of either international relations or relationships with other industries and bringing expertise and communicating across different countries - how has this led the pathway of the country overall?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, the Seven Sisters companies were here in the countries and we got a good relation too, because our production is at the time is high, about 1.6 billion barrels of oil per day for over 10 years. Yeah, up and down. But until 1970s until late 80s, early 90s, then we also a member of OPEC. I was the Governor of OPEC, I was the Secretary General of OPEC, I was the President of OPEC, too.

Bret Kugelmass
We're talking OPEC as in all of the big oil producing countries across the world, not just in your region, right?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yep.

Bret Kugelmass
How did you rise to this position of power and influence within this organization? I'm sure there were a lot of other people who wanted that job as well.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, Indonesia was one of the members of OPEC, just one, although today, Indonesia is not a member of OPEC, because our oil production is depleting. We are not a consumer, like you guys in United States, but at the time, because we are one of the member, the government of Indonesia assigned me as a governor of OPEC. I was in OPEC starting in 1990s as a Governor of OPEC and then climbing up. Then in the early 2000s, they appointed me as Secretary General, and also the President OPEC.

Bret Kugelmass
You obviously have shown a proficiency in the ability to rise into power, both within OPEC, but with also in your own country. Can you help us understand which characteristic is it that helps you rise these positions of leadership? Which characteristic do you possess?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
One of the important things is that Indonesia is a Muslim country. Most of the OPEC members are also from Muslim countries, so, we have some kind of moral religion among the OPEC members, although we have the members like the Latin American and South Americans and also other countries in Africa. The dominant members mostly is the Middle Eastern countries. I think that's the thing that is important.

Bret Kugelmass
But what about you personally? What is it about you that allows you to take on these positions of leadership? Is there a certain attribute of yourself?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Actually, when I was the Governor OPEC, that was the assignment from the member countries. That's the position of governor and then as time goes on, we mingle and mix with the OPEC organization, and I was becoming familiar with them and then at one point, I think the members choose. Usually in the OPEC organization, they choose someone in their organization to lead the organization. Like I said before, the Secretary General is the person that is coming from the bigger countries, for instance, from African countries, from the country that can be balanced between the OPEC interest and OPEC member countries interest. That's why they probably selected me as a Secretary General. And meanwhile, also, because they're has to be a President of OPEC, then, at the same time that they asked me to become the President OPEC, to chair the OPEC organization in the early 2000s.

Bret Kugelmass
What was the entry point for you into Indonesian politics? When did you become involved in your own country's leadership?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
To be frank with you, Bret, I was not belonging to any political party. I stick myself as a professional. When I return back to the country in 1998, because they asked me to chair, what we call the Energy Policy Studies, under the cooperation between our governments. I chaired the meeting for almost two years and also studied under the Asian Development Bank for the sustainable development in an economic environment. At the time, environment is becoming the priority. Then I returned back to the country, and lucky me, after I finished with this pass, and then they asked me to join the National Defense Institute. That is the nine month course for the training of the leaders in the country. I joined there as a student, and lucky me too, that I was number one. They gave me an award and that is very important in my career, then I move on. Yeah, as an Assistant Minister, of Energy Assistant to the Minister. The thing that, because I have a success in the National Defense Institute, and then I can get that rank in my class, so, then they gave me the trust to be a deposition Assistant Minister, and then from there, I just run with it.

Bret Kugelmass
Were there any specific projects that you remember that you were in charge of during your career on your way up that you used as a good opportunity to prove yourself, to prove what you were made of, where you did excellent work, and people recognized your abilities? Do you remember a specific project, perhaps?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Oh, yeah, there's a lot of things. When I completed my course, as I told you, in the National Defense Institute, I was the Assistant Minister on energy matters. And at that time, mining and energy was still dominant in government revenue. We have in the energy, as I mentioned to you, we have the Seven Sisters, and then in mining, we have the big mining companies coming to this country. So, the mining energy in our country is very, very strategic to contribute to the economic development in our country. And that's the role that is very important, being in the strategic ministry. To be specific, I remember I met with President Bush at the time during the OPEC meetings when we discovered the Cepu oil field. The Cepu oil field now is still 30% of Indonesia production. Total production now is about 750,000 barrels per day and Cepu is a big boon. I remember, at the time, ExxonMobil discovered the Cepu oil field, it was an old oil field. But, Exxon did a good job. They drilled, they deepened the hole, and they discovered the big, huge reserves at the time. And of course, in the developing country, politics is always there. Some people say, take it over. Some people say, No, we have to respect the contract, because contract is contract. Contract is the law between two parties. At the time, I was accompanying the President of Indonesia to have a meeting, the OPEC meeting as a Pacific Economic meeting and we have the bilateral meeting with President Bush. I remember that. And President Bush was asking my president, and they have the ExxonMobil and the President of Indonesia, look at me, is that well, he can explain to you and when I explained to President Bush, I think he accepted it. I said, we always the country that respect the contract. Contract is contract, the contract is the law between the parties. And now Exxon is still then until today.

Bret Kugelmass
So, that was a good decision.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
That was a good decision, because we know that they get the technology, they get the capital investment to develop the field. Well, then you know, like regarding the Freeport also, we have to understand that Freeport was awarded by US government back in 1965. When actually, to be frank with you, we need the US, because at that time, we just- We just completed under the UN referendums, and then US knows they have the ability to develop the copper mines and Freeport came in. We have the sovereignty, but sovereignty can also be joined with economic investment. Now, Freeport is still there, I got a very good friend in Freeport, Jim Moffett, you know him, but he passed away now. I feel my good friend, Jim Moffett was the founder of Freeport, Freeport Mcmoran. That was really some kind of decision, I can tell you in the whole day what I did for over 20 years in the energy industry, starting in 1992, 1993, when I graduate from National defense Institute, I joined the Ministry as an Assistant Minister, and then I became the Minister of Mines and Energy for 10 years. So, at lot of things.

Bret Kugelmass
Now, when you were in the top position, as Minister of Mines and Energy, what other major shifts in the energy space worldwide were happening, that you had to factor into your local decisions?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
One thing I learned from Indonesia, and one thing I shared to my friend, in the region, you know in the ASEAN, and OPEC, and also in other parts of the world, is one, that, in the case of Indonesia before, we rely heavily on the supply side, because we are a country that produces oil and gas, we are the country that produce the mines, mining mineral, and we rely on it. But as you know, those are the depletable resources. At the time, we enjoyed the revenue from those commodities, but we had to realize that there will be shifting from the supply side, because we are relying on the upstream production and we are exporting, we make money and the money plugs into our state budget for economic development. But then, we have to realize that someday, somehow the production will be declining, because they are natural resources. The important thing that I would stress, there are times that I was an economist, I got my degree from Boulder from Colorado University and then I got the mineral economics PhD from Colorado School of Mines, so my mind always thinks, not only in the technical side, but also in the economic side. I told the government that it's got to be gradually, away from relying on the mines and energy, but we got now to develop the economic side.

Bret Kugelmass
And how does that transition happen? What are some of the key points of investment where you can take the resources from the upstream side and turn them into economic growth somewhere else?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
At the time, the portion of mining and energy revenue in the government revenue was about 70 to 80%.

Bret Kugelmass
Wow.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
And we didn't like that, to be frank with you. I know that, in the sector, I was so proud of it, but you have to look at the future. This will happen. This will happen today. This way, we have to shift it one, from the mine and energy economics to a non-oil and gas, non-mineral, non-mining and energy one. And we did it then. Now, the portion of the revenue from the mining and energy sector is probably only 10 to 15%.

Bret Kugelmass
Wow. Okay.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yeah. But you know, that was a big improvement.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah. That's amazing for stability. So what are some of the other sectors that were allowed to grow?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, we got another industry, the industrial sector is also developing in the services. At the time, the country is- if you look at what we have in the economic development of a country at a time is the traditional economy. You're relying on the agriculture, but we thank God, we have the mines and energy resources. What we try to do is to gradually move from the traditional economy to the industrial economy, because industrial economy can give you the added value. Like in US, you have Boeing manufacturer, you have a lot of other industrial manufacturers that give you the added value. That's what we try to do, to move it here. This would be what we are doing in the country to shift it gradually from the mines and energy economy sector to non-mining and energy economic sector, industrial and the services. I think we did it well, and due, because the economy today is bumpy.

Bret Kugelmass
Yes. Now, you also served in the role of Minister of Defense as well. Was that a big shift to you? I know you'd studied at the Institute of Defense, but did you have to take on new challenges and learn new skill sets as you took on the new role?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Bret, I keep my professional work, but I also love teaching. Because someday, somehow, when I retire, like me today, you will enjoy transferring your knowledge to the younger generation. Probably you don't get much salary, but you love to give that to the young people. That's what happened in the developing country, because education is very important. After I graduated the National Defense Institute, I keep myself teaching the National Defense Institute, because I have the legacy as the best student graduated in 1991, 1992. I did keep teaching there until, in 1998, they asked me, Hey, could you be the Vice Governor of the National Defense Institute? And I said, Why not? Then I shifted my career a little bit from the mines and energy to the National Defense Institute. And in that institute, also, we developed the mines and energy and knowledge because, to train the people to be the leader in our country, you not only understand the narrow professionally there, but also you have to know the broad knowledge. We also have that section in our institute and the National Defense- And I was there. So, when the President asked me to become the Minister of Defense, some people asked me why. Why Purnomo Yusgiantoro? I told him, Hey, I spent seven years as a teacher, as a lecturer, as an instructor in the defense institute. And I also held the position as Vice Governor of National Defense Institute, but thank God that now, I have already done 15 years. I am now the longest minister in the reform era, Bret.

Bret Kugelmass
Amazing. Absolutely amazing. And I wonder, now that you sit in an advisory position, is there a way that these two spaces intersect with each other, both energy and defense?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
You got it right, because I am not a senior advisor to the Chief of Staff in the presidential palace. Because I was there before in the mining and energy, I was there before in the defense, so, I continue contributing that, advising the Chief of Staff, presidential teams up in the palace in those areas.

Bret Kugelmass
And what are some topics that come up today, in today's day and age? What are the big questions that need to be answered around the spaces of energy and defense?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
In the field of mines and energy, a big question is, as I told you before, the production is declining in the oil and we have to import some of the demand that we need for the country. So, now in our mind, how can we move up the oil production? If we cannot move up the oil production because of depletion, because exploration is not- the exploration ratio is always the challenges for us, because that's related to investment. Then, what I would recommend for the country is coal liquefaction and coal gasification. The question is why. I learned from several countries. You remember in South Africa when the embargo because of apartheid, they blocked the energy supply into the country. You know what they did? The liquefied the coal to become oil. You know what happened in Brazil, starting 1975? They have the ethanol and what they do, they develop the energy from ethanol, and not, but luckily, they also now discovered oil and gas, but before they only have ethanol. What they did, and also know the technology, German has a technology, China has a technology, Japan has a technology, and also attracts a company from US to come to Indonesia. But that's for coal gasification, to replace the LPG by developing what we call DME, dimethyl ether. Because we have a huge coal reserve. You know our coal reserve?

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah because it's all mountains, all mountain islands.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes. Recorded reserve is 70 years, the proved reserve is 70 years. But then, we included also the unproved reserve resources, then our coal reserve can be until 300 years.

Bret Kugelmass
Wow.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
So, what I'm thinking, Hey, you know what happened in Canada in the Leduc area, in Alaska, coal mining, they also convert the Alaska area to become the liquid to become the energy. Guess what I told this country, hey, you can make use of coal, instead of you're polluting the coal and then convert it to become the petrol product that is more environmentally friendly. Because it is big, if you can convert successfully, then you can extend it from 70 years to 300 years. You can survive. You don't have to depend on oil anymore.

Bret Kugelmass
Is there interest in other areas, such as renewable or nuclear? Are these areas that are interesting to your country as well?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes, because we are committed in the Paris Agreement. And when I was the minister, I also committed to Brundtland Commission. Brundtland was the prime minister in Nordic countries, and they said, Brundtland, you can fight for clean energy, you can fight for environment, but the important thing is their poverty. The poverty is very, very important, because you remember in a poor country in the developing countries, that you asked the poor people to concentrate the focus on the environment, but they still need the basic need. They still need food. They still need clothes, they still need a place to stay. They call it the Maslow theory.

Bret Kugelmass
Yes, the Maslow hierarchy of needs. Yes.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
You need to feed them first. Before the people look for the environment, before the people's need for internet, what they will look for is their food, and then the place to stay, and then clothes. This happened, Bret, in in the developing countries, so, that is very important that we have to alleviate the poverty. And that's not my concept. There's a Brundtland concept, it's a UN concept that now has to be applied in the developing country, especially in the poor country. Before we think about the sustainable development, before we think about environment, before we think about the luxury things.

Bret Kugelmass
Yes. So, what you're saying is, if somebody is going to bring a technology to your country, it has to be the cheapest, because the first and foremost, the primary concern is alleviating poverty.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes. Not only the technology that is achieved, but also technology that is proper to our country, because some of the country, if you bring the high technology that cannot be applied to our country is very difficult. It's got to be the technology that is suitable to be applied in the country. It's what I always stress in the defense, because defense, you need a lot of industry, to develop your acumen. The technology is important, but we need, not only the cheap technology, but the proper one, the proper one that can be important for new and renewable energy. Because two things, a new and renewable in the developing country, like Indonesia, one is the cheap technology. Two, is the economy, because you cannot compare to coal. The problem with the coal in the least cost concept, coal is the cheapest here, but coal produces the emission.

Bret Kugelmass
I was gonna ask - there are so many islands and the unique infrastructure concerns - are there other things about the energy infrastructure, the electric infrastructure, that we should know, or that create challenges in your country?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes, you're right, because we are the island countries, we are archipelagic countries. But we have the Big Islands, six big islands. On each island, what we try to develop is the interconnection on-grid. We have on-grid now on Java Island. I don't know if you're familiar with the Sumatra Island, with the Kalimantan island, in the Sulawesi Island, in the Papua Island, we developed on-grid first. Then at the same time, we also developed what we call off-grid, because in an isolated area, Bret, where can't be reached by the on-grid, infrastructure is still poor, what you need is the in situ energy, the energy that is there that can be built to create the electricity, like solar.

Bret Kugelmass
And what are the characteristics of islands that are not necessarily connected to the main grid, but might still have sizable populations? What type of power infrastructure would you build there?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Mini, the micro, a small one, because you don't have the big population there in an isolated area.

Bret Kugelmass
And what sizes? Once again, off of the main grid, what's the next largest size that you'd have to deliver power to? 10 megawatts, 100?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yeah, 100. One megawatt, two megawatt, in a big island, like in Java, you can have like a 600 megawatt, 300 megawatt, but in a small island, because there's no demand, because in the isolated area, the isolated people, so what you need is not a big power plant. This way we have the micro, we have the mini power plant, that will be suitable for a certain area.

Bret Kugelmass
Is there anything in the middle or is it mostly the big islands with the big grid connected and then a lot of little places all around, or are there other pockets and clusters?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes, yes. There is also the pocket and the clusters, because the grid is usually on the city, but then there is a pocket. There's a pocket cluster there, also by on-grid, and there is very important to build the off-grid electricity. So, the important thing is in the border because your borders always touchy, you have also experienced that. The border is always our touchy.

Bret Kugelmass
How do you think about future energy build out? Is there a strategy, does the government outline what has to happen? Or is it mostly private development and the private sector decides where to go?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, if this country, like in most of the developing countries, we have what we call the state company. The state company is one that, given the task, given the duties, to also meet the energy demand. And the electricity and the oil and gas and the mining is always there. That's under the coordination of the State Minister of State enterprises. What we are planning, we already set up what we call it the Energy Policy. In the year 2025, what we dream is to get above 23% of the renewable energy there, mostly from hydropower and then from geothermal, because we are the biggest geothermal in the world. We've got geothermal, the biggest one is worth 30,000 megawatt. And we can also get the investor from the United States, California, because you get also the geothermal, and then in California, and then also the solar, because our country is located in the equator. Those are solar arrays in our country. And then other also typical of energy, because, right now, Indonesia, from the natural resources standpoint, we are the biggest coal production, we are the biggest in the palm oil production. And that palm oil can be also converted to the biofuel. And I think biofuel is our focus now to also substitute oil in the transportation. And besides, we are now the biggest in the world in the nickel production, and the nickel is the raw material for the batteries for the electricity vehicle.

Bret Kugelmass
It sounds like there's actually quite a lot of diversity in terms of the types of energy that you guys can produce there.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes. Yes.

Bret Kugelmass
Is there a role for- I understand that there's the state function, the state owned energy authority? Is there also the legal infrastructure for independent power producers to come in, or does that not exist?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes, we call it the IPP. Right now, the dominant supply from the state company from the state electricity company, but we also open for the we call it IPP, independent power producers. So, the independent power producers made the contract with the state company and then the state company that will supply to the consumer.

Bret Kugelmass
The contracts that they sign, these are like 18-year PPAs, or is that a different structure?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes, it's a long term contract, because we understood that IPP also need to recover back their investment.

Bret Kugelmass
Just so I get a sense of where Indonesia sits in the world, what are some prices that these PPAs go for? How much is this power sold for typically?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
In the electricity price, we divide it into different region. For instance, if you are in the Java Island, you are the IPP, you are the private power, you want to supply the electricity to Java Island, then you have to compete with the cheapest one. But not only that, because government has a thing, if you supply the electricity using the renewable energy, that's a priority. For instance, now we developed what we call the rooftop solar cell. You can be the hybrid, for instance, if you build the rooftop electricity solar cell, and then you can also send that as an export of electricity to the state company. But you can do the hybrid, if you need a demand that is higher than your rooftop solar cell supply, then the gap can be also supplied by the state company. So, we really encourage new and renewable energy, NRE.

Bret Kugelmass
Yes, and just so I have a sense, what's the difference? And the reason I'm so curious, is because the way that your country is geographically oriented, with the different pockets that are easy or hard to connect, what's the range in prices for power? Let's say, if you were supplying, you have the most competition in Java versus somewhere that's more remote, what difference in price would we see?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Okay, between five to 10 cents US dollar per kilowatt hours. Okay. Five to 10 cents per kilowatt hours depends on the primary energy that you use. Of course, if you use oil, they'd be higher. If you use coal, because coal is huge in our country, that be cheaper. But then, if the coal company wants to develop, the coal IPP wants to develop the electricity, then we have the request to put the static precipitator to put the environment.

Bret Kugelmass
Scrubbers, we call them, right?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Right, so, that's cost, too, for them, but makes cleaner air.

Bret Kugelmass
What's the process for an independent power producer? Do they bring their idea, their project to the state energy company? Or is it the other way around? Does the state energy company put out a bid and say we want power here, we're willing to pay about this much for it, come and submit your bids?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yes, we usually have the five years plan, we have the short run plan, medium plan, long run plan to develop the power plant, where and when. In planning and government planning, you can see where and when to build the power plant, to meet the future demand. With that, then you can apply that to the state companies, you know, we asked the state company, based on the government planning, to open the bid, and then when you open the bid, then we will see which one is the compatible one. So, we are planning the document forever.

Bret Kugelmass
Tell me about the relationship between energy and industry. You said that your country had moved more towards an industrial model and not just selling the resources, but the industry also typically requires a lot of energy correct?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Yep.

Bret Kugelmass
Which industries are more sensitive to the price of energy?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, I think most of the industry is really concerned with that, but the important thing is we can ask them if they can provide the capital. So, we allow them, we allow the industry to build their own power plant, called Captive Power.

Bret Kugelmass
Okay, interesting.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
With that Captive Power, let's say they build 100 megawatt, but then only need 50 megawatt, then 50 megawatt remains, they can sell to the state company.

Bret Kugelmass
Great.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
So, actually, they help the state company to get the power from the Captive Power to be distributed to the consumer.

Bret Kugelmass
Great. Are there certain industries that take advantage of that more? Is there like a steel industry where that might be common, or other industries?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Oh, yeah. Some industries take benefit for that kind of policy. But of course, before you build that, you have to also convey to the government, Hey, government, this is the industry that I develop in the country and this is the Captive Power plant that I want to develop, but then the remaining has to be negotiated the price. We don't want that, you have the industry 40 percent, but 60% is the power company. The focus is on the industry first, and then the captive is a supporting development industry.

Bret Kugelmass
Yes, that's amazing. What are you looking forward to in the future? if, you know, as we wrap up today, maybe you could just kind of tell us your your wishes and your dreams for how the sector might evolve moving forward?

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Well, what I would like, to realize my dream, Bret, now I have the Purnomo Yusgiantoro Center. I'm not that old, because I can smile, but I have the 20 young people, 20 young people, they are bright, they have good work they graduated from from overseas, like, you met our friend here, Haryanto, they are all smart people, they speak English, they help us. And we are nonprofit and independent. So, actually, what they are doing is to help the government as much as they can, by publishing the journal, talking to the focus group discussion, and in the month of October, we would like to invite you too, Bret, we're going to have every two years, we have that every two years, is the International Energy Conference, it's free. And usually young people come in, and the speaker is from the overseas. So, if you could suggest to ask, Haryanto will talk to you, as some other people talk to you, and you can suggest somebody in the International Energy Conference, usually it's open by the top people in the country here. Through the Purnomo Yusgiantoro Center, I hope that I can pick up my dream in the energy sector, and also in defense, because my legacy is in defense, and as you probably know, I have to mention, I was the co-founder of the National Defense University in this country. We have a good relation with US, we have a good relation with Monterey, the naval graduate school there. My concentration now is in the education, although I am also helping the government, but every two years, we have the International Energy Conference, so please, Bret, if you could submit to us the contact point, then, we always like to invite you or you come to Jakarta.

Bret Kugelmass
We'd love to come.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
As my guest.

Bret Kugelmass
We'd absolutely love to come. Well, this has been an amazing conversation. Purnomo Yusgiantoro, thank you so much for taking the time today. It's really been wonderful talking to you.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Thank you. Thank you, Bret, hope to see you again in the future.

Bret Kugelmass
Soon enough.

Purnomo Yusgiantoro
Thank you.