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Olivia Columbus

Podcast Producer

Energy Impact Center

November 11, 2021
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Ep 50: Olivia Columbus - Podcast Producer, Energy Impact Center
00:00 / 01:04

Bret Kugelmass
We are here today for a very special 50th episode. It's always my distinct and rare pleasure on these episodes - 50, 100, 250, 300 or whatever it is - to take a moment and actually interview a member of our own team. So we have with us today, the mastermind behind Energy Impact, Olivia Columbus. Welcome.

Olivia Columbus
Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yes.

Bret Kugelmass
For anyone who doesn't know you yet, you are the brains behind this podcast series. You also run our other podcast as well. We'd love to take the opportunity as we do to learn a little bit about you. And also invite another special guest to the episode.

Olivia Columbus
Bret's dog.

Bret Kugelmass
So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Where did you grow up? How did you get interested in energy? And how did we even get in touch to begin with?

Olivia Columbus
Yeah, so I grew up in Ridgewood New Jersey, it's right outside New York City. And growing up, I was really interested in multimedia work, video, photo. I started taking photography classes when I was in middle school and kind of continued that and then design through high school and then into college. And when I was in college, I began working in- I studied Strategic Communications at George Washington University and I began working in human rights, doing communications work at a human rights organization, and that's how I got interested in ESG. I was really introduced to early ESG, practices, concepts. We had a big conference, the organization I was with, and I got to be really involved in that. And then, about a year after that, during COVID, I was looking for some sort of a job, something to fill my time, and I began a podcast with a former member of Congress.

Bret Kugelmass
Which member of Congress?

Olivia Columbus
His name is Toby Moffett. He was a representative for the state of Connecticut in the 70s. I helped him launch this podcast and we focused on reimagining political issues post-election and the podcast is actually live, which was-

Bret Kugelmass
A lot harder than this.

Olivia Columbus
Terrifying, because there was always some sort of technical issue, someone's power went out, someone's microphone went off, something like that. I feel like I really dove headfirst sort of with that experience. When I came over here, it was much simpler, much easier. And so about six months after that-

Bret Kugelmass
Not too much easier or I'm not working you hard enough.

Olivia Columbus
No, no, it is work, but we're not doing it live. About six months after that, I got a message from Josh Mesner, who said his organization that he was working for was looking for someone to produce podcasts and I've been here ever since.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, that's interesting. I think the first thing we'll have to do is kind of explore how you even got an offer, given that we've got a distinct policy of making sure that everyone has at least two years worth of work experience before coming here. What exactly- how did you trick us into thinking that you were qualified to even have a job here?

Olivia Columbus
So I was actually a senior in college when I got this message. And I'm also not entirely sure how I tricked you guys into letting me work here. I think I had a lot of experience kind of doing some of the things that I was going to be needing to do for this job in launching this podcast on my own. And then also in my role and my former job, when I was in college, I was really lucky in that I got to be really hands on. Even though I was an intern, I got to sort of lead a lot of projects on my own. I had some of that experience of just kind of taking charge and getting things done that was really valuable when I started here. We have a small team here - or had a small team, we have a much larger team now - but that was sort of helpful and gave me a lot of experience that I probably would have typically gotten in my first few years.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I'll tell you, from my perspective, first, the way you were able to speak so articulately and confidently about your experience managing that podcast really stood out to us. I think it's incredible that someone in college can gain such experience that's, in today's era where podcasts are a legitimate media channel that now all sorts of corporations are employing as part of their core marketing strategy, that someone so young can gain such a credible and realistic experience that is so commercially viable as well. I think that's pretty amazing. I was skeptical of that and you've proven that case, above and beyond. I think something else that stood out to me, I remember, during our interview you had mentioned the type of person that you were seeking to interview. And there was actually a little bit of overlap in some of the type of people that you need to recruit here. Maybe it was in the energy finance space. Did you come across finance people before? What was that?

Olivia Columbus
In my former internship, we had a big ESG conference and we interviewed about 300- we had 300 investors and my role in that conference was actually conducting interviews for video, promotional content, things like that. I had no experience in the finance world before about three weeks before that conference started. I just had to kind of dive in headfirst and really learn all of these terms and familiarize myself with some of the leading ESG institutions in the United States and abroad and kind of get myself up to speed so that I was able to accurately and appropriately communicate with these individuals and write questions and have these conversations with them. That was my initial introduction. Then I continued a lot of that work through the nine months that I worked there. I think I thought I knew more about it than I did.

Bret Kugelmass
Always the case, yeah.

Olivia Columbus
Since coming here, I am every day learning so much more particularly about the role that finance and financial markets play in the energy system, the environmental climate change, all of those sorts of topics. And while I was much more exposed to the sort of social part of the ESG initiatives when I was at my former role, they're still very applicable. I think it's even broader when you look at the environmental and energy issues that are on that topic. And I think in the last year, it's just become- it's boomed in terms of focus on that area. It was such a great time and we were so lucky that we launched a podcast we did, because we've only seen it just grow.

Bret Kugelmass
Yes. So what's it like? How do you put together a guest list? How do we even decide who goes on the podcast and how do you get ahold of them?

Olivia Columbus
It was interesting, because I think when I started, we had a bit of a sense of what we wanted the podcast to be, but we still didn't have- we were still working that direction a little bit. When we're looking for people, we are really interested in individuals who are actually making change, whether that be a very, very small couple of investors or a government leader. It doesn't necessarily matter how high profile someone is; it's whether or not they're actually taking the effort and the initiative and making those changes. We look and try to monitor a wide breadth of people. And thankfully we have a really great team here who helps me with that job and they're always referring me to people. We've actually been really lucky in that a lot of our former guests have continued to refer new individuals to us. For anyone who's listening, we love that when people write in and suggest other guests who they think might be relevant based on some of the people we spoke to in the past. That's been really helpful as well. Then, when we reach out to them, we try to figure out who's the best person to get in contact with, X, Y, or Z, and then we're really able to- typically, I think we get a response pretty quickly. People are really excited to have these conversations, because we are not asking- we just want them to talk about their job, what they do, and kind of why they love what they do and the impact that they're having. And I think this is a topic that a lot of people are excited to share.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, it's pretty amazing. How did it feel the first time that people started emailing you trying to get on the show?

Olivia Columbus
That was pretty crazy. I think the first time I really experienced that was actually for our other podcast, which has been around for a little bit longer, so it's a little bit more something we're used to. But it was really interesting, because I felt like, Wow, we're really producing something that people see as being really valuable and interesting. And I love anytime anyone writes in. It's always a great time.

Bret Kugelmass
So what happens? What's the process like? We figure out a target, either we reach out to them or they reach out to us, and then is there like a prep call that happens beforehand?

Olivia Columbus
Yeah. Typically, we'll do a prep call with an individual. I think, more recently, we usually do it if someone wants to do so. With Zoom, it's become so much easier to have these conversations that I think a lot people are just really comfortable. But usually we'll email back and forth, decide on some topics we're going to cover, maybe we'll have a call and chat about the topics, run a tech test, things like that. And then pretty quickly thereafter, we get you on the phone with them or another one of our hosts. And we record the interview. It's about an hour and we cut almost nothing.

Bret Kugelmass
That's pretty amazing. Is that surprising to most guests, how little we cut? And what do we cut? When would we make a cut? Like when a dog chews through the wires?

Olivia Columbus
Generally, right, when a dog chews through the wires or maybe someone said something and they meant to say something a different way, and they'll stop us and correct themselves. We cut that, but that's pretty much it. We try to leave the conversation really natural and really expose our audience to the actual conversation that happens. Not give something that's highly, highly produced.

Bret Kugelmass
I think that's pretty important. So there are- we've got, I guess, four hosts for Energy Impact. I guess I did some of the earliest episodes. How do you break up the rest of the episodes between the hosts? Who does what and are there differences that you notice between the hosts and their style?

Olivia Columbus
It's interesting. We have different hosts who- Energy Impact is really cool, because everyone who is on Energy Impact is someone that actually works Energy Impact Center, which is the organization that Bret founded. Our hosts host specific episodes based on their area of work and the area that they focus on professionally. We have Michael, Michelle, and Adam. Those are our three other hosts. Michael typically focuses on the finance episodes. And he's our newest host, so you were hosting a lot of his focus prior to him joining us. Michelle typically focuses more on policy and then sort of broadly is also, kind of similar to you, she's able to cover a lot of different areas. She's been recently hosting some of our journalists and a few other guests. And then Adam mostly focuses on government relations and other sort of industry experts, so people who are experts in things like PPAs and high energy offtake situations, things like that. That's really Adam’s area of focus

Bret Kugelmass
What about the style? What do you notice?

Olivia Columbus
It is really interesting. I think for you, you've been so many of these episodes that it's just second nature.

Bret Kugelmass
I don't I feel that way. I feel like I get sloppier over time, because I've done so many I take them less seriously. And so I just, I'm not as focused as I used to be an earlier episode.

Olivia Columbus
You definitely seem the most comfortable. You just are able to walk in there and do it. And a secret about Bret is that usually I'm filling him in right before he goes in and I'm like-

Bret Kugelmass
Don't tell them!

Olivia Columbus
I mean, he is obviously very familiar with who's coming.

Bret Kugelmass
But I'm not, let's be honest.

Olivia Columbus
I do have some prep work.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, what's it like? Describe those little details you can, like the first five minutes before?

Olivia Columbus
Alright, so Bret usually is coming from another call. He'll come over to my desk to say, Alright, this is five- five is generous, it's usually closer to three minutes of when we're starting. He comes over my desk. He says, All right, who's this guest? I give him a rundown. He's always read the sheet. I write a big prep sheet with the person's background and all their information. He is somewhat familiar, but he takes a lot of calls in the day, so I understand that there's a lot going on.

Bret Kugelmass
How do you decide? So you've got three minutes to brief me or anyone on one of these. How do you decide what to communicate?

Olivia Columbus
Typically, I focus on what they are currently doing, so what their current role is and what they do there. Why we are interested in speaking to them. Maybe they raised a fund recently or they're a government official and they're working on some really important initiative, something like that. And then anything kind of other various things you need to know about the individual. But it's mostly those two things. And then I think that actually makes it a better episode, though, in that you're learning with the audience. Even for our other hosts, I try not to prep them too much, because I want them to learn things about our guests live. I think you ask better questions. You actually ask the questions that the audience is also thinking about.

Bret Kugelmass
Okay, well, you don't have to pamper me too much here. Let's hear about some of the other guests, too. What are some of their strengths? Well, the other hosts, the other hosts.

Olivia Columbus
All of our hosts have a different style. What's really interesting and what I was thinking a lot about when Michael started, I was helping him sort of get familiar, is that all of our hosts have a different way intro-ing their episodes.

Bret Kugelmass
Oh, interesting.

Olivia Columbus
Everyone has their own little intro speech that they give.

Bret Kugelmass
What are the differences?

Olivia Columbus
Yours is very- you always say, "So we are here with" and you say their name, and then you say where they work, and then you say, "So and so, welcome to the podcast." Whereas, I think some of our other hosts maybe introduce it a little bit more like it's a television show. Everyone has a way a way of doing so. It's really interesting how people have chosen to do it. And I think it really is nice. I'm sure people have different hosts and they maybe like the way some hosts do certain things and the way other hosts do other things. One thing that's kind of fun that Adam did for a while is whenever we would have someone on from a country he would prep a list of facts about that country. Things like that that everyone does and it really makes it fun. I think it makes it more interesting, because not only are you getting to listen to a different guest, you're getting to listen to a different host.

Bret Kugelmass
It's pretty interesting that each host has a little bit of a different style. I like it. I like listening to different hosts. And I learned a lot. Actually, I was always a little bit nervous about- not nervous, but like you really want to hear yourself speak for an hour, but I really do enjoy the content. So now that we have diversified our lineup of hosts, I can actually enjoy our own podcast more.

Olivia Columbus
That's fair, that's fair. I'm always interested when our other team members have feedback on each other's episodes. I think it's really interesting to hear the feedback on the conversations, because I always- it's just interesting like, if someone else has that episode, what would they have gotten into? Where would the conversation have gone and how could that be different? But that's also why we sort of try to match up people with their area of expertise. I think we're pulling out the best of what we can.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, exactly. Any big surprises or things have come up? Have we ever been any controversy with any of our episodes?

Olivia Columbus
Not on this podcast.

Bret Kugelmass
Okay. All right. Yeah. Maybe explain the other podcast that you produce. Okay. So I just want to clarify, Energy Impact is your baby. You came up with the idea. You launched it. You hustled an amazing first guest, Steven Chu, that was awesome.

Olivia Columbus
Yeah, that was crazy.

Bret Kugelmass
Formal Nobel laureate, former Secretary of Energy. And you got him on our first episode. Kudos to you. Can't give you enough props. So that's your baby, but you also manage what's our other products.

Olivia Columbus
Our other podcast is called Titans of Nuclear, Titans focuses exclusively on members of the nuclear industry and I think on Titans we've actually had- so for context, Bret launched Titans of Nuclear about four years ago as a way to explore the nuclear space. And that's kind of how we got this whole concept of interviewing someone from our team every 100 episodes, every 50 episodes started. Bret was the 100th guest on Titans of Nuclear and that's continued, so we've brought that tradition over to EIP. And I definitely do feel like EIP is very much my baby and Titans is very much your baby.

Bret Kugelmass
But they both have great intro music.

Olivia Columbus
They do both have great intro music. And yes, Bret made Titans' intro and I made EIP's intros.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, I love the Energy Impact Podcast intro music. Can you explain what it is and what the process was like to create that as well?

Olivia Columbus
I really wanted to tie in the theme of the Titans intro which- so on Titans, the intro is a speech about atomic energy from-

Bret Kugelmass
Eisenhower.

Olivia Columbus
Eisenhower, right. Atoms for Peace, the very famous speech. And so when we were launching EIP, we were actually also undergoing a brand relaunch of the Energy Impact Center broadly and so I wanted to both tie in that brand relaunch while also tying in some elements of our other podcast to kind of weave everything together. So we took this idea - we worked through a bunch of different things - and we took this idea of the speech being really important. I was looking through speeches that sort of emulated the idea of technological progress and innovation and looking for things that sort of struck that. We came across John Kennedy's speech about space travel, going to the moon. And while that's not obviously about energy, he actually does talk a lot about energy.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, that was crazy. See, I didn't know that. Okay, so this is the famous JFK-

Olivia Columbus
We go to the moon.

Bret Kugelmass
Yes. And part of that speech that other people don't know about is he talks about energy. He's also referring to nuclear energy. And actually emulating the success of American technological ingenuity, pioneering new types of science, and how successful we were with nuclear as a way to kind of create the competence that we can do this with space, too, right? And we didn't even know this.

Olivia Columbus
We had no idea. We just found this speech and we felt like it was really impactful, really powerful. So we took it and the first couple edits were pretty rough. It's an old speech and he gave it outside. The audio is just not great. I really worked it. And actually the first few versions, we had some very different intro music. Bret chose some EDM. Really, really rough. Eventually, we got to this this piece and then Bret basically went to Atlanta for three days to our other office, came back, and I just had this ready. And all I did for three days was listen to JFK's voice. And I also thought it was really cool, because before I worked here, my old job I actually worked for the Kennedys. And so it was a really cool way to kind of tie in my sort of work-

Bret Kugelmass
Just brush your shoulders off, why don't you.

Olivia Columbus
-the work I've been doing before with this job and something that I was really passionate and thought a lot about.

Bret Kugelmass
I actually think that you made a serious improvement - I don't know if other people know this - but you changed the emphasis on at least one of the words by jumping up the volume or like cutting a little bit of a gap, but you literally changed his like tone a little bit and I think made it way better. And I'm like, JFK, come on, you're supposed to be this great order. You should have done what Olivia did to your speech.

Olivia Columbus
Right, like come on. How did your speechwriters not tell you to that?

Bret Kugelmass
I just, since the beginning with this podcast - I mean maybe it was some of the lessons learned having done over 300 episodes on Titans of Nuclear - but I just feel like the way that we launched it, the types of guests that we've had, everything is just coming together so well. We've gotten to speak to so many interesting people. And it really is like your baby. It's all thanks to you to make everything work so seamless and flawless. And maybe I should just take this episode as an opportunity to publicly thank you. You make my job, you make everyone's job here so easy, so it's pretty incredible to watch you work. So okay, tell us what's next? What else do you want to accomplish? And what's it like to work here at Energy Impact Center?

Olivia Columbus
Next, I mean, another 100 episodes is next really. We are looking forward to having some more really exciting guests. I think we were lucky. I don't think any of us could have imagined in the first few episodes we would have had on who we did. Steven Chu, that was crazy and totally random, almost. We just reached out and he said, Yes. That's really the secret.

Bret Kugelmass
Don't make it seem that easy.

Olivia Columbus
We've had some really incredible experts in the first 50 and I'm hoping that we can double that in the next 50 and beyond. We're finally starting to travel. We're about to go travel for our other podcast to record some episodes and hoping to be able to do the same for Energy Impact.

Bret Kugelmass
Where are you going?

Olivia Columbus
We're gonna go to the World Nuclear Exhibition in Paris.

Bret Kugelmass
Paris, okay. Not too bad. Little podcast trip.

Olivia Columbus
Really exciting, yep. And hopefully, we can do the same for EIP eventually, as things begin to open up and we're able to find some more energy finance conferences, things like that.

Bret Kugelmass
Okay. So finance is one of the three legs of the Energy Impact Podcast. Journalism, right, understanding how people write about this, how people communicate in the public sphere, and then just kind of general industry policy. Are there areas that kind of listen to this that you just personally want to hear more about that maybe even we haven't discussed yet, but kind of strategically, where you'd like to see new guests coming from?

Olivia Columbus
I think one area may be- we've been looking to- there are kind of two areas I think we've been looking to break into, but maybe haven't yet. We've done a few episodes about energy offtake, high energy users, and how industries that use a lot of energy are handling this clean energy transition. And that's somewhere- we spoke to folks from Google and some PPA experts, things like that. But I would love to speak more with professionals in that industry and learn about empty purchasing. That is a huge, huge space that a lot of people just don't think about. And how companies that are signing on to these massive clean energy pledges are actually executing those pledges, because that's a huge challenge that that they're gonna have to face in the next 10 or 30 years, depending on what their initiatives are.

Bret Kugelmass
What's it like? You just personally kind of like, okay, so you get to listen to these episodes, you get to like, really digest the content. When you like, read the newspaper about energy. What's it like? Like, do you? Does it line up with what you read? Or do you have a special insight maybe that even like, that other kind of public thought leaders don't have on this? How do you think about energy more broadly?

Olivia Columbus
I think I'm maybe more critical than I was necessarily a year ago. Energy was never something I thought about, really, and it was never something I thought I would go into as a career. I am not a sciencey or math person and so it was something I definitely shied away from, so something I just never felt like I could tackle. Being able to sort of come into it from a strategic communications perspective, I'm always thinking about how is this issue being framed? And how are we positioning these conversations in a way that it's in the most- maybe the most positive light? Or how are different issues positioned against each other? Obviously, at our organization, we think a lot about nuclear energy, we have this nuclear podcast. I'm often thinking about how is nuclear framed or positioned by- in the news and things like that relative to other sources of energy? And also, how are things like oil and gas framed? How are renewables framed? And how are those different frames impacting the way that the public perceives those?

Bret Kugelmass
And okay, so what should we do? If you were to kind of- you're in charge right now. You're in charge. Let's say you're in charge of the whole organization, you're my boss. Where should we be taking things? How should we be changing how we see strategic communication in the energy sector? Who should we be focusing our time and attention on so we can have the greatest impact?

Olivia Columbus
It's such a good question and I don't have a great answer for you. But I think we think a lot about how we are speaking- who we are speaking to and how maybe they perceive these issues and the issues that we're focused on. And I think that's important. And I think energy- this whole energy transition is something that gets a lot of attention, but I also think it's maybe something that people, they talk a lot about it, but what are people actually doing to progress that forward? And I think that's something we think a lot about, right? Like how are we realistically going to reach net zero and go beyond net zero? And so, I think from a strategic communications perspective, that's something that we've always sort of driven home, but it's something that more broadly across the world and across the country, we're seeing people finally get to, Alright, let's stop throwing out buzzwords. Let's think about what's actually going to get us there.

Bret Kugelmass
Are you pretty optimistic? Do you see people kind of taking it more more seriously as the years go by?

Olivia Columbus
I think in the last year alone, we've seen people sort of come to terms with, Okay, we need to stop pretending. But at the same time, I don't necessarily want to say that it's going to change anything until we see the impacts of these actions. Especially obviously, I focus a lot on the finance world and in the financial markets and the role that they play. And I think that's one of the areas we've seen the biggest change, the most change in the last year, with a lot of these large institutions finally starting to put their money where their mouth is. But at the same time, it doesn't matter unless the money is actually going towards things that make tangible impact. So it's hard to say now and, broadly, a lot of people say we're not going to meet 2030 goals. Looking ahead at 2050 and others, like COP this year, people had such huge expectations for it and are now saying it's just not really gonna come to fruition in terms of how they wanted it to go. I think that's just another sign of like, Don't let these opportunities go by. Every year we get more and more carbon emitted into the air, so how are we putting a stop to that, actually?

Bret Kugelmass
So I kind of see the work that you do. I see all the prep work that you put into this. I see the level of expertise that you gained. When you talk to your peers about this. What's that conversation like, people in your generation and you want to kind of communicate energy problems? Or you evaluate what they know. So not like the top experts, but people, your colleagues. What's going on there? What do your friends?

Olivia Columbus
I think I drive my friends a little bit crazy, because I always want to talk about energy, and they're not interested. But I think it is something that maybe not enough- I think a lot of people of my generation are very climate focused. They're very concerned with climate change. It's something that we grew up with. It was never really a question, broadly speaking, whether or not climate change was there and whether or not it was an issue. But at the same time, I think maybe people don't think about the energy role enough. People- if it's not something you're focused on every day, you don't realize how important clean energy is and how diverse clean energy is. There are a lot of different sources of clean energy. It's not just solar and wind, but I think most people my age probably just think that's all it is.

Bret Kugelmass
Yeah, yeah. And so many different parts of the industry that needs to be decarbonized. You know, people think, I think when the average layperson thinks of energy, they think of electricity, right? They don't necessarily think of building heat, which we've learned even more than electricity accounts for carbon emissions. Oh, and by the way, it's three times harder to outcompete fossil fuels, because fossil fuels produce heat three times better than they produce electricity. So that's gonna be pretty hard, huh?

Olivia Columbus
Yeah. I think part of why my generation thinks about climate change is because it's something that impacts us so broadly, right? And it's just so important. But it's one of those things, you don't realize how much it impacts you until you actually look at it on the level of all the different things in your life that it can play a role in.

Bret Kugelmass
Your role, your career: I mean, how do you see it moving forward? I mean, I understand you're early career, but now that you've gotten a chance to kind of see some of your colleagues that are a little further along, do you see roles that you might want to step into the future beyond Podcast Producer? Have you put any thought into that?

Olivia Columbus
It's a really good question and something I do think a lot about. I never thought I was going to be a Podcast Producer. My career to this point has sort of been a weird mix of just the right place at the right time, kind of falling into jobs. I sort of took this original producer role, because I had- it was COVID and I needed something to do and I was looking for something that was in my interests. And I really thought I would go into politics, and then Josh reached out to me and I said, You know what, let's just try it.

Bret Kugelmass
Your mom didn't believe that the offer was real.

Olivia Columbus
My mom definitely thought that my job was fake.

Bret Kugelmass
My mom thinks the same thing. She still doesn't believe I have a job.

Olivia Columbus
And I still kind of convinced a lot of my friends that think my job is sort of fake, because they're like, You're a Podcast Producer. Like what? Like you don't- that's not anything you've ever studied. The energy space, right? Like politics? Sure. Maybe that's believable, but in the energy space, it's very confusing.

Bret Kugelmass
Okay, so where do you want to go?

Olivia Columbus
I think I'm more and more interested in sort of the strategic role that organizations like ours are able to play in in the energy space and sort of how you can mix strategic communications and marketing and policy to sort of advance efforts like our organization does and how to move that forward. And I think the podcast is one part of that. Being able to really dive deep into that one part of our strategy, if you will, is fascinating to me and I would love to look at it more broadly and how more pieces of communications are able to fill that in.

Olivia Columbus
It's hard, we ask everyone this question, but I never think about it myself.

Bret Kugelmass
Amazing. Okay, well, yeah, we'll make sure to create those opportunities for you. Let's think about, just like your vision for the future - while the dog tears apart everything in -this office - your just vision, let's wrap up on that, your vision for the future. If you were to look 10, 15 years out, what does the world look like in your utopian optimistic scenario?

Bret Kugelmass
Well shame on you. This should be a softball.

Olivia Columbus
I think in my perfect scenario, we are rapidly decarbonizing our- not just our electricity grid, but energy use broadly and we see a world that actually values deep decarbonisation. And not just like as a buzzword, right, when it's embedded within policy, within finance, within sort of all of these topics. We just have a more informed society and a society that is able to have conversations about these topics and sort of embed it into every decision that we make and it doesn't have to be a scramble to hit net zero or begin decarbonizing, and we're already well on our way.

Bret Kugelmass
Olivia Columbus, everybody.

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